@waswithbell the one item missing from your description is the connection point between the inbound Rogers cable and the house cable system. Everything from the inbound cable to the MoCA adapters has to be equipped with the required MoCA components. That includes:
1. A MoCA Point of Entry (POE) filter connected to the inbound cable. That prevents any ingress into your cable system of external MoCA data, and it prevents any of your MoCA data from leaking out to the outside world.
2. The MoCA POE is then connected to a MoCA 2.0 rated splitter. That ensures that all of the house cables that are required to operate as part of the MoCA network will actually communicate via the MoCA 2.0 splitter.
3. Any other splitters located upstairs are also required to be MoCA 2.0 rated.
That system, from your description would look like this:
Inbound -> MoCA -> MoCA 2.0 -> house -> MoCA 2.0 -> Modem -> devices
Rogers POE splitter RG6 splitter -> TV
cable filter cable
-> house -> MoCA 2.0 -> HT-EM4 -> office device via ethernet
RG6 splitter -> TV
-> house -> MoCA 2.0 -> HT-EM4 -> device via ethernet
RG6 splitter -> TV
I have included the two HT-EM4s in case you were looking to set both of those up. Note that the HT-EM4 has an ethernet port to support connected devices. You probably should not connect the ethernet port of the HT-EM4 to the modem's ethernet ports as that probably results in an unpredictable internal network loop. In any event, it looks like the modem has enough ports to connect to all of the devices where the modem is located, and if I'm correct, the HT-EM4s will be sitting in other locations.
The one problem with the splitters is the signal loss thru the splitters. That's just the result of using splitters to run more than one coax device off of a single cable feed. All of your splitters should be MoCA 2.0 rated splitters. That ensures that the splitters are capable of supporting the current MoCA 2.0/2.5 frequency range which tops out at 1675 Mhz.
Rogers is changing its frequency bands used in cable ops. The traditional frequency bands are 5 to 42 Mhz for upstream channels, and 200 (?) to 1002 for downstream channels. The new frequency bands are 5 to 85 Mhz for upstream channels and potentially 208 to 1218 Mhz for downstream channels. I haven't seen any hard evidence for the frequency expansion up to 1218 Mhz just yet, but, that will happen at some point, presumably in the not too distant future.
So, here are the options for splitters:
Holland Electonics (now bought out by Amphenol)
2 Port: GHS-2PRO-M
3 Port: GHS-3BPRO-M - balanced splitter
3 Port: GHS-3PRO-M
4 Port: GHS-4PRO-M
Amphenol:
2 Port: ABS2202H
3 Port: ABS2203HB - balanced splitter
3 Port: ABS2203H
4 Port: ABS2204H
So, depending on what you currently have installed in terms of modem, nextboxes, and Home Phone modem, you will potentially need a larger MoCA rated splitter downstairs or possibly an Antronix MVRAM501B-G2 or MVRAM901B-G2 amplifier. The first is a 5 port amplifier and the last is a 9 port amplifier. Both amplifiers are designed to run the new mid-split frequencies (5 to 85 Mhz upstream) and designed for future expansion of the downstream frequencies up to 1218 Mhz. They are spec'd up to 1194 Mhz, which should suffice for the 1218 max frequency.
At the present time, I need some information to figure this out:
1. What devices are you running, the Hitron modem, at least two Nextboxes (?) and Home Phone??
2. Are the Nextboxes running in a Whole Home PVR mode, which uses MoCa? If so, you should already have a MoCA Point of Entry Filter installed on the inbound cable.
3. What do you have downstairs where the incoming cable connects to the house cable system. With those devices running, you will have a splitter or possibly an amplifier. There will be an identifying model number on the face of the splitter or amplifier. Can you post that please.
4. That splitter or amplifier will have numbers printed by the individual ports. If you can, can you try to determine what port the modem cable is connected to and what number is indicated by that port. The number will indicate the signal loss thru that particular port. If you only have a two port splitter for example, then both ports are marked 3.5, which indicates a 3.5 dB loss thru that port. Larger splitters will have larger losses thru the ports, depending on which splitter is installed.
5. Can you log into the modem and on the Status page, copy the Software (firmware version and post that). Then navigate to the DOCSIS WAN page. On that page are the downstream and upstream signal tables. Please copy them and paste them in a post. To do that, park your curser at the front of the line indicating the "Downstream Overview". Hold down the shift key and scroll all the way down and to the right of the of the very bottom table. Scroll right until your curser is sitting just after the last character in the very bottom table which will be the OFDMA Overview. Release the shift key and with the data still selected, use Ctrl c to copy the data. Then in a post, use Ctrl v to paste the data into a post. The result will be the same tables, in the post, just as they appear in the modem's user interface.
If you still have the Holland splitter sitting just ahead of the modem please let me know. And please let me know what model it is, as seen on the face of the splitter.
6. Can you pull a wallplate off of the wall and have a look behind the wallplate for another RG-6 cable. Or, maybe you already have a wallplate on it with dual coax ports? Please let me know if you have a second RG6 cable installed.
7. Please have a look at the cable jacket in the basement. You should see the manufacturers data printed on the jacket. I'd like to know if the cable is RG-59 which is used for antenna purposes, or if its RG6 which is built for cable purposes. RG6 has lower losses at the higher frequencies, which would help for MoCA 2.0 purposes.
Ok, with info on the basement splitter or amp, number of devices that are cable connected and the signal levels I should be able to tell you if the MoCA idea will work.
Something to keep in mind is that this year is probably the last year that Rogers will allow the legacy equipment on the network. The push is on to migrate everyone to the new Ignite TV system and the XB6, XB7, or XB8 modems. When that happens, the Hitron modem, all Nextboxes and Home Phone modem are removed and replaced with a single modem and the Xi6-A or Xi6-T set top box which is a very small unit. Those set top boxes connect to the modem via wifi and ethernet, and connect to the tv via HDMI. The splitters and amplifiers are also removed, although, for MoCA purposes, the main splitter or amplifier in the basement can remain in order to run the MoCA network. That will depend of course, on the signal level at the modem.
OK, thats a start. Please ask any questions that come to mind as we sort this out.
@waswithbell looking at your signal levels, they aren't too bad considering that the modem is sitting behind a couple of splitters. So, that's actually good news.
Typically in an apartment or condo, there is a communications closet somewhere near the front door. Any cabling that comes in from outside of the apartment/condo should arrive at the comms closet. From there, any cabling for the unit will start and run out to the rooms where services are required.
It would be very odd for cabling for any particular unit to start at some point outside of the unit. By that I mean that the cables that run to the modem location and the cables that run to the office for example shouldn't have their start point in a central communications room outside of the unit. There should be a single cable that runs from the building's communications room to the comms closet for each unit. And then from the there, the condo owner would or should be able to manage his own cable network.
Isn't there a central comms closet near the front of the unit, perhaps sitting behind some type of covering that doesn't allow you to see behind the cover unless you take the cover off of the wall?
In the case of an apartment / condo building, the building is usually serviced with a Multiple Dwelling Unit, possibly similar to the units pictured here:
https://www.antronix.com/solutions/multiple-dwelling-unit
Those units and others that are built for the same purpose are not built to support MoCA operations. They're built to provide single cable service to each unit. If multiple cables for the units all start there, that would be very very odd. Each unit would have to have a splitter installed after the unit cable leaves that central MDU, and prior to all of the cables leaving the communications room enroute to each unit. In a way that simplifies the issue because if that is the case, then the splitter for your unit would have to be swapped for a MoCA 2.0 rated splitter. The fact that you might not have access to that room does complicate the issue. If this is the case, then a Rogers tech would have to swap the splitter out for a MoCA 2.0 rated splitter. This isn't entirely ideal as you want to keep the number of ports on the splitter to a minimum in order to keep the signal losses to a minimum. If you didn't need to connect all of the unit cables to a splitter, so much the better in order to keep the modem's downstream signal levels above 0 dBmV. The signal levels that you posted aren't too bad, so, that give me some hope that swapping the front end splitter for a MoCA 2.0 rated splitter won't result in terrible signal levels. Without any input from you, the tech would have to install a MoCA Point of Entry filter and a MoCA 2.0 rated splitter equal to the number of ports that are on the current splitter.
The other potential here is that the cables for each unit arrive at some point outside of your unit, where a splitter would then be connected along with the cables that run to each room in your unit.
I wonder if the superintendent would have any idea as to how the cabling runs from the building comms closet to each unit?
Lol, trust me, Rogers wouldn't want me to be in charge of Rogers. I'd actually expect the technology to work for the customers, not the other way around ...
Hi @waswithbell what led you to the conclusion that MoCA couldn't be done at the present time? Were you able to access the common closet next to your condo and the utility room in the building? This should be a simple matter of identifying the correct cabling and installing a MoCA splitter at the connection point, wherever that happens to be. If you have to call Rogers in to do that, its worth a call just to see if they will do that at no cost to you.
Call tech support and indicate that you need to identify the cables for your unit so that the tech, or you can replace the existing splitter with a MoCA 2.0 splitter. Its a very simple matter to identify those cables, and if we're only talking two or possibly three cables, then it shouldn't take very long. If you only need to use two or three cables out of a larger group, then you'll be further ahead in terms of signal levels. Ask if a field tech can be assigned for a tech visit and if that can be done at no cost to you. If so, great. If tech support indicates that there's a cost to it, 50$ (??), then you'll have to decide to do it or wait for the Ignite system to come in, at which time it will be necessary to disconnect the current splitter. The Ignite tv system uses an XB6, XB7, or XB8 modem only. So, only one RG6 cable is required for a house, condo, apartment, etc, etc. All other cables are disconnected, and the existing modem, Home phone modem and any Nextboxes are removed.
If tech support is agreeable to this (at no cost??), I'd recommend buying one of these, just in case the techs don't have a cable tester of this type. I can't imagine a tech without a cable tester, but, hey, who knows. In any event, this Sperry tester is an ethernet and RG6 cable tester. I recommend these for anyone running cable and/or ethernet cabling:
Leave it in the packaging and if you need to use it, unpack it and use it to determine which cables are which. If you don't use it, you can always take it back as long as its still in the packaging.
In terms of drilling a whole thru the wall, that's actually not a hard thing to do. What you would do is cut a hole in the wall that is just under the size of a wallplate. With that cut, you then install a Low Voltage Mounting Bracket which looks like this:
Thats a single gang bracket, as in a single wallplate bracket. They do come in larger sizes if you're looking to install a two gang bracket or something even larger.
With the brackets installed on both sides, then you would need to install an ethernet cable onto two ethernet keystones. There would be one keystone for each wall, living room and office, but, you could install another cable between the two sites if you preferred to do that. Here's a link to videos on punching down ethernet cabling on to keystones:
With the keystones set to go, then all you need is a wallplate with the appropriate number of keystone mounts:
https://www.homedepot.ca/search?q=port%20wallplate#!q=port%20wallplate
At the end of the day, if the new wallplate is mounted at the same height off of the floor, it will look like it always belonged there. The hardest part of the whole process is cutting the hole in the wall, ensuring that its at the correct height, with the correct width and height for the cut. There are tools to cut holes in drywall, but their fairly expensive. Easy to use but expensive .... I've always used a knife to make any cuts in drywall. Just have to be careful with the measurements:
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/stanley-18-mm-snap-off-knife/1000449913
Something like that. It takes a little while to make an exact cut on an existing wall so that you don't make any marks on the wall outside of the cut lines, but, it can be done. There should be enough room behind a wall so that you can use the same cut location on both sides of the wall. You would know if that would work when the first hole is done. If you had to you can offset the hole locations as the ethernet cable would give you the flexibility needed to do that. One caveat of course is that you have to ensure that you're not cutting near an electrical outlet, just to ensure that you don't cut into an electrical cable while you're doing this.
And... you want to avoid any wall studs. So, you should buy a stud locator to determine where the wall studs are:
https://www.homedepot.ca/search?q=stud%20finder#!q=stud%20finder
So, the super didn't want you to access the utility room, what about the common closet next to your condo? All you really need to do at the present time is get in there, look for any RG6 cabling that might be associated with your unit and take a couple of pictures, including any splitter that should be present. Post them so we can figure out what's going on with the cables. Same goes for the utility room. All you want to do is look for the Multiple Dwelling Unit, will all of the unit cables connected. If there aren't any splitters on those cables, that means that the splitters for all of the units are probably in the common closets next to the units. So, its not like you're doing anything. Its just a simple visual inspection. Hopefully the MDUs are out in the open and not behind a closed cabinet. If so, then yes you need a tech to help you sort this out, but, its a simple task.
If your super doesn't want to deal with this now, he's going to have to do it when the Ignite TV system rolls into the building.
Do you happen to know when the current building agreement with Rogers expires? I'm assuming that there's a master condo agreement with Rogers for internet and tv services for the building.
Hi @waswithbell, concrete walls! That complicates the issue. I was thinking that the wall was an ordinary 2x4 stud wall. Guess not.
Are your services all part of the condo agreement with Rogers or are there any services that you obtain on your own? Depending on how long that agreement runs, you could see a long delay before a forced switch over to the Ignite services. Someone on the condo board should know, almost off of the top of their head when the agreement expires.
Hi @waswithbell you indicated above that you had one landline inbound from Bell. Is that just one specific location? Around the condo you should have telephone jacks in the wallplates. They will all be connected to a 66 block which serves as a junction point between the inbound bell line and all of your condo telephone outlets. The in wall telephone line might just be Cat-5e which can be used for ethernet purposes. If you only intend to use a single location for that landline and you're never going to move it, you could repurpose the other telephone lines for ethernet purposes.
Its easy to determine if that's possible. At any wallplate that contains a telephone jack, remove the wallplate from the wall and have a look at the cable that is used to connect to the telephone jack. If its a blue multi-strand cable it just might be Cat-5e cable. If there's enough slack behind the wallplate, see if you can pull out any of that cable so that you can read the data on the cable jacket. Hopefully you will be able to see if its Cat-5e. A brown cable would probably be Cat-3 which isn't suitable for ethernet purposes as it doesn't have enough internal wire pairs.
Food for thought, if that cable is Cat-5e and you changed the connectors on both ends, you would be able to run a wired mesh network. Yesterday, the capability to run the Rogers pods via ethernet was determined. So, that really improves the performance of the modem / pods combos. At some point in time, when the condo switches over to the Ignite system, running ethernet for pod backhaul should be the preferred choice given what you indicated about concrete walls and poor wifi performance. That would be worth considering as part of a building update to the Ignite system.
With ethernet available, you could also run a wired mesh network using any other commercially available system. You would have to run the 4582 modem in Bridge mode, which I've done for the last 6 years and install a wired mesh network connected to the various locations in the condo. I know that Asus routers have wired backhaul capability but I haven't looked at their purpose designed mesh networks. I suspect that they should run via ethernet but I'm not assuming that's an absolute guarantee. So, Asus is one possibility, there must be others that run via ethernet as well.
The XB7 and XB8 modems that Rogers uses for the Ignite system have one 2.5 Gb/s ethernet port. That is used to support the internet plans that run above 1 Gb/s. In order to run multi-gig data rates throughout any wired ethernet system, you would need a multi-gig switch such as the following:
I'd recommend an unmanaged switch at the current time as running Rogers pods thru a managed switch hasn't be proven yet.
For anyone looking at running the XB7 or XB8 modem in Bridge mode and looking to run data rates above 1 Gb/s you would need a router with a multi-gig WAN port and if you were looking to run those data rates on your local network, you would need a second multi-gig LAN port on the router. They are available, but, their definitely more expensive. That price differential for multi-gig routers is decreasing. Its not equal yet, but, its getting there.
Lastly, the Xi6-A and Xi6-T set top boxes that replace the Nextboxes are HDMI to the tv only, and they also have an ethernet port. The boxes run via wifi or ethernet.
So, hopefully that provides some food for thought. Repurposing the telephone cables to ethernet cables wouldn't be hard to do. You might have to call in a third part tech to pull apart the telephone cables where they connect to the inbound Bell line. That's not hard to do and I'd expect any professional tech to take no more than an hour to install RJ-45 connectors at the wallplates and at the Bell connection point. With RJ-45 connectors at the connection point, those cables can then be connected directly into an unmanaged switch. The typical approach at the connection point is to install keystones in a small rack and then use short jumper cables to connect to a switch. The only caveat for the switch is that it shouldn't be parked in a small closed cabinet. They don't use much power, but, like any powered device, they should be running in an enclosed space where they can eventually overheat.
At the end of the day, switching the cable connectors to run ethernet and installing an appropriate switch would be far simpler than running MoCA adapters. As Rogers eventually moves its cable operating frequencies upwards, that will conflict with the existing MoCA frequencies. That's a known MoCA issue. The only solution is for MoCA adapters to move upwards in operating frequencies as well. That will happen down the road, its just a question of when it will happen.
Do you have access to the common closet between your condo and the neighbours condo? I suspect that the cable systems for your condo probably start in that closet. It would be interesting to see if they can be accessed without much difficulty.
@waswithbell can you post a picture of the back of the wallplates, possibly using the macro feature of your cell phone or with real camera. The important point is that the ethernet cable has 4 internal wire pairs. Its possible that you have ethernet cabling, just not the typical blue jacket colour.
Edit; For a telephone, only two wires (1 wire pair) are required to run the phone. In an ethernet cable, they would typical be the white wire and blue wire with white stripe, or reverse, blue wire and white wire with blue stripe, depending on who manufactured the cable. Its highly possible that the three other wire pairs are cut off, right at the cable jacket, or pulled back along the cable.
Here's a link to a page showing the typical wire pair colours in an ethernet cable:
https://incentre.net/ethernet-cable-color-coding-diagram/
It might be a plan to pull out the wires from the back of the electrical box to try to understand what those cables are. Never know what you might find 🙂
For the router, lets step back a bit. If for example you only use the modem which has a 2.5 Gb/s port on it to support data rates above 1 Gb, and you want more than one device on the ethernet/MoCA network to be able to run 1.5 Gb/s, or possibly 2.5 Gb/s, you would need a multi-gig switch. That switch would connect to port 4 (marked in orange/red) of the modem, which is the 2.5 Gb/s port. That switch would then connect to any other device that you're trying to run at 1.5 or 2.5 Gb/s, such as the Screenbeam ECB7250 MoCA adapter. That adapter has a multi-gig ethernet port that runs 10/100/2500 Base T 802.3bz, according to the spec sheet. That doesn't make sense jumping from 100 Mb/s to 2500 Mb/s. I suspect that's an error not to include 1 Gb/s. There are other MoCA adapters that also run 2.5 Gb/s ethernet ports, so, just have to examine the specs of what you're looking to buy.
The switch would be one of the following:
So, with the switch in place and 2.5 Gb/s MoCA adapter running, you should be able to run 1.5 or 2.5 Gb/s thru the adapter ports, depending on the internet plan that's available. That might depend on the Condo agreement with Rogers.
If you were looking to run your own router, simply for the purpose of accessing all of the functions that are typical in routers these days, in addition to running 2.5 Gb/s thru the router, then you would need a router that has both WAN and LAN ports that will run 2.5 Gb/s. I haven't done much looking around but one example is the Asus GT-AX6000:
https://rog.asus.com/networking/rog-rapture-gt-ax6000-model/
So, that's get the higher data rates into and out of the router. This would look something like this:
Here's one possible version with just the modem and single MoCA adapter
<--coax path -->
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Modem -> Multi-gig -> Xi6-A or Xi6-T set top box 2.5 Gb/s MoCA adapter -> Multi-gig -> devices
XB7 or XB8 Switch -> TV Switch ?
-> other
The one problem here is that I haven't been able to find the specs for the modems that show the MoCA data rates
With just the modem connected to a switch, not using the internal MoCA capability:
Modem -> Multi-gig -> 2.5 Gb/s MoCA adapter --- coax --- 2.5 Gb/s MoCA adapter -> Multi-gig -> devices
XB7 or XB8 Switch Switch ?
-> Xi6-A or Xi6-T set top box
-> TV
-> other
With the modem connected to a 2.5 Gb/s capable router, not using the internal MoCA capability::
Modem -> Router -> Multi-gig -> 2.5 Gb/s MoCA adapter -- coax -- 2.5 Gb/s MoCA adapter -> Multi-gig -> devices
XB7 or XB8 2.5 Gb/s Switch Switch ?
WAN/LAN -> Xi6-A or Xi6-T set top box
ports -> TV
-> other
The big driver here is the functionality that you might want in a router, and of course, for both possible versions, the cost of the switch, MoCA adapters and router.
If you were able to run pure ethernet in the condo instead of MoCA, you would save on the cost of the adapters.
Hi Datalink:
Here are two of the jacks. Top is the one where the Bell tech did most of the work located in the master. On the other side of the wall is the one he installed in the office coming from this one. He did not work on the kitchen (bottom) as I only wanted one active jack in the office.
Thank you very much for including all the info about the routers, I have to chew on it as it is way over my depth, but I really appreciate it!
Hi @waswithbell. Thanks for the photos. So, the first photo looks like AT&T 25 pair wiring. There might be more than one 25 pair wire bundle in that mess. I wonder what you would find if you were to very carefully pull that wiring out. I'm specifically wondering if the first installation is like the kitchen installation, with a short wall box installed. And if so, I wonder if there is a conduit connected to that in wall electrical box?
The kitchen photo is pretty clean. Looks like a Cat-3 (?) and RG6 cable exiting what appears to be a conduit (?). That phone cable might be a Cat-5e cable with strange wire pair colours. You would have to have a closer look at the end of the cable jacket to look for cut wires which would indicate a possible Cat-5e cable.
So, here's a thought. You need to access the common closet between the two units. Again its just a visual inspection at this point. You're looking for three types of cables:
1. The usual RG6 cables for internet/tv support
2. Cat-3 (?) cables for telephones
3. AT&T 25 pair cables for telephones.
4. Conduits that are used to guide those cables to your unit and possibly to the neighbouring unit. It would be good if both units had totally separate wiring bundles so that you could tell which one was which.
Have a look at the following page:
The two pictures on the left are AT&T 25 pair cables. As you can see from the photo which is 2nd from the left, that 25 pair cable is jacketed and very compact, so that installing it would be easy to do. After you take the jacket off at the end of the cable, it explodes into a mess if it isn't installed correctly. Don't know why anyone would have used that cable type in your condo unless the intention was to run an office with multiple phone lines.
So, alongside the Cat-3 (?) and RG6, you should see a slightly larger cable which would be the 25 pair cable. There may be more than one. The jacket should be black or white.
So .... food for thought .... if you can determine that those inwall electrical boxes are connected to a conduit, and you can see the conduit ends in the common closet, the next question is whether or not those cables move freely within the conduit. If they will move, I for one would consider calling in a professional to pull those cables back and run an RG6, Cat-5e and at least a Cat-6 cable to each location that is supported with a conduit and which have existing cables that can be pulled back. I would also consider running a single mode and multi-mode fibre as well for future use. The Cat-5e would be for telephone and the Cat-6 would be for internet purposes. At the very least, if you can determine that yes, both ends are connected to a conduit, call in someone just for an estimate to see what it would cost. I think you're talking about three or four locations.
The easier path, if you can determine where the cable splitter is located is to simply replace the existing splitter with a smaller MoCA splitter that supports the number of cables that you want to use for your MoCA system. The long run solution would be to run RG6, Cat-5e, Cat-6 and fibre thru the conduit, giving you flexibility in terms of telephone and internet cabling and future growth thru fibre. Just depends on how long you might be there.
You indicated that you have concrete walls, so, using conduit to run inwall cabling would make sense. The question is, if there is conduit in the walls, connected end to end, can you make use of that to run a combination of RG6, Cat-5e, Cat-6 and fibre?
Edit: One other item to look for if and when you gain access to the common closet. Is there an electrical outlet that can be used to run an internet switch? If not, that changes the cables that would need to be pulled into the condo. Cat-6 cables would still be usable, but the configuration would change so that any switch would be inside of the condo.
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